Estimates

Q:

Hello! I have a question. My producer and I did a major bid for the product launch using many models, it involved a huge production of set building, and various teams for what they asked for. We ended up not getting the project, it was nothing that was asked of us as far as production, sets and look. Is there a way to approach the agency when bidding that allows us to be bidding the same job – apples for apples?

A:

While we can’t predict or control the bidding process, we can ask every question to help us understand the production details. The key is to have an A+ producer and make sure you get on a creative call, as that is where we get our answers. The purpose of three-way bidding is to protect clients in a fair apple to apple comparison, so they are not overpaying. Our goal is to protect ourselves by understanding all the information, even when we may have to dig around to get that info.

Clients don’t always have all the facts when we are bidding a job, leading us to under-bid certain areas. If more responsibility falls into your lap than expected, don’t hold back in stating your case to request more $. Clients know that some gray areas may result in an overage, but they need us to be the ones to ask for it.

Sometimes we bid on projects where we don’t have all the information yet, and the client may not have all the details either, leading to many assumptions. We should include “TBD” (to be determined) on those line items in our bid to protect ourselves. Even if we don’t include them, once the job is awarded and more responsibilities shift to us that were initially thought to be handled by the client, don’t hesitate to ask for additional funds. Address any new needs or changes directly with the client—don’t get frustrated. Often, they will understand because the situation was unknown at the time. Request more prep days, additional tech scout days if needed, extra post time, or anything else necessary. Remember, just because the bid is awarded doesn’t mean you have to absorb these changes without discussing them.

Q:

Hey there, I had a meeting today with a client that I would really like to work with. The meeting went great but they asked what my test rate is and I’m kind of at a loss. Any suggestions on pricing a test would be greatly appreciated.

A:

A test rate usually falls within half of what the regular day rate can be for a client. The logic behind the test rate is how it does not include usage licensing fees. This principle is the same premise for how I price a pre-light day; always have the estimate read, “no usage included” next to this fee.

Make an educated choice when choosing a producer to help you bid a job. Be aware that some charge a 10% production fee on the expenses and some don’t.  Some do waive that fee if you ask, so know that you do have options.

When you are bidding for a job you have to ask yourself if you need a producer and if so, which producer do you need? There’s a new element to our decision, it’s called a production fee. It used to be called a markup fee and then ad agencies did not want to pay that fee. Now it’s called a production fee. What we’re paying for is 10% of the production expenses that gets paid to the producer. They want to be covered for giving their employees health insurance and other expenses to keep their business going. It’s a new concept and some producers don’t charge it, but some do. Think about that and ask that question when you are choosing your producer.

Q:

How do you charge differently in one case where a client comes to your with a project that is 90% fleshed out and you fill in the remaining 10% vs. a client that comes with a project that is 10% fleshed out and you come up with the other 90%… on a sliding scale you become art director and photographer… is that something that gets accounted for in the final bid?

A:

In my experience, the clients who don’t hire an art director or designer are trying to save money. They have lower budgets, so they want the photographer to come up with the branded shot list. I suggest staying clear of these situations because you are doing someone else’s job without getting paid for it. I’ve never seen these types of clients agree to pay more for art directing, but they really should. The first question I always ask is, “what is your shot list?”

When a client handles production expenses and asks for your day-rate estimate, be careful as they often assume that will include other costs such as your crew, camera gear, and retouching. Spelling that out on your estimate is not enough. Before the job happens, ask how they are handling the specific production costs that pertain to you. 

Something often happens with estimates, especially when it’s from client direct. They are handling the production expenses. They ask us for a bid or an estimate just for our fees but it’s often not just our fees. They think other things are inclusive with fees. When fees are really your usage and your time, your creative fee, your day rate. Even after you think they understand because you’ve made it very clear, do it again. Make sure before the job happens that they are crystal clear if more retouching is needed or if overtime happens it’s going to be this much. Ask them how they are handling the crew, how they want to handle your equipment. Stuff like that. Assume they don’t know because you have to protect yourself even if you think you already did in the estimate.

Overtime is tricky because even if you think the client will be expecting it, don’t take any chances. They hired you as the director, controlling the day, offering strategic steps to look out for their best interest. Bring it up before it’s too late.

We have to talk about overtime. If you’re on a job and you see yourself heading towards overtime, talk with the client. Check in with yourself at lunch time, or early in the day. Ask yourself, “Where are we?” Are you falling beyond or you’re not getting all the shots done in the 10 hours. Overtime was probably already discussed with the client in an email and it’s on your contract or even talked about on the phone, but don’t count on that. Talk to them or have your producer talk for you or your rep. The client has to know in advance because they might not have the budget and it’s your responsibility. Even if they’re trying to add shots and you’ve said ok. Also, the amount of overtime has to be approved, such as how many hours of overtime and for how many people. You don’t want any surprises and you never want to hand it to your client and say, “Surprise!” You have to protect yourself.

Q:

So often art directors push for more images on the shoot day even after the final number of shots has been agreed upon and approved. It’s tough to navigate on set. They usually say something like, “we’d love to get a few options on this shot,” or “what if we do this?” How do we be stern (no pun intended) with these on-set requests with discussing money during the middle of a shoot?

A:

I tell every photographer I rep or temp rep to blame me. For example- “I’d love to do this for you, but Andrea had me agree that you’ll have to talk to her first.” If you aren’t working with a rep then you can say, “As much as I’d love to, it’s my self-producing policy to not surprise you or me later with costs and timing issues so I’ll get back to you in a few minutes with any cost or scheduling changes to make those happen.”

Q:

What questions should be asked when figuring out costs for projects?

A:

This could be the most important part of estimating a job. Get the info you need so you understand what they are looking for, otherwise you risk not being covered ($) for something they expected you to cover. The other risk is you will be either too high or too low and not get the job. Ask for their budget (I doubt you will get the answer), get the shot-list, a layout or mood-board creative deck, what is the usage they want to license, and are they handling any of the production. After you see their deck info- ask the specifics about the day count, remote or on set, location, talent, props, backgrounds, surfaces, live casting or not, and any part of the production they are handling. You then have a sense of your approach and their needs to get your estimate started.

Navigating the Unknown Episode 11 is now live on YouTube! This week we speak to Art/Content Producer Kay Gautraud, and Producer Michael Klein about how to navigate estimates for a project in today’s climate. 

Guests:

Kay Gautraud – Art/Content Producer https://www.kaygautraud.com/#/

Michael Klein – Producer, Circadian Pictures https://circadianpictures.com/

Navigating the Unknown is a Q&A series in collaboration with APA-LA where we speak to different members of the photo community about all aspects of the commercial photography business. https://la.apanational.org/

With Co-Host: Photographer Hugh Kretschmer https://www.hughkretschmer.net/